Episode 99

full
Published on:

12th Feb 2025

A Holy Shekhinah for Our Times with Joy Ladin

On the first episode of 2025, I'm joined by repeat guest Joy Ladin.  Joy is a widely published essayist and poet, literary scholar, and nationally known speaker on transgender issues. From 2003 to 2021, she held the David and Ruth Gotsman Chair in English at Stern College for Women of Yeshiva University.

Her gender transition and return to teaching in 2008 made her the first openly transgender employee of an Orthodox Jewish institution. Joy's experience of being poetically mentored by the Shekinah resulted in the completion of a book length sequence, Shekinah Speaks, published by Selva Obscura in spring 2022, which she joined me to speak about on this podcast in 2023. She's published several other books, including, most recently, a new book of poetry, Family, and Once Out of Nature, selected essays on the transformation of gender. And she is the recipient of the National Jewish Book Award for The Book of Anna.

On this episode, we riff about:

  • The concept of family, at both the individual and national levels
  • How our personal narratives help us make meaning in our daily lives
  • How Joy's understanding of the Shekhinah, the indwelling presence of God typically gendered as female, has shifted since our first conversation in 2023
  • The role of gender binaries in helping us relate to divinity
  • Joy's perspective on the historical need for a transcendent God, and how both Jesus and the Shekhinah were responses to His limitations
  • What the Shekhinah can offer us in this particular moment in time

Notes about this episode:

And here are a few more details about this show and my work:

  • If you’d like to know whose ancestral tribal lands you currently reside on, you can look up your address here: https://native-land.ca/
  • You can also visit the Coalition of Natives and Allies for more helpful educational resources about Indigenous rights and history.
  • Please – if you love this podcast and/or have read my book, please consider leaving me a review, and thank you for supporting my work!
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  • And to read about the Sacred Feminine, check out my award-winning book Home to Her: Walking the Transformative Path of the Sacred Feminine (Womancraft Publishing), available on Audible and wherever you buy your books!. If you've read it, your reviews on Goodreads and Amazon are greatly appreciated!
  • Visit www.hometoher.com to learn more about your host, download a free meditation and sign up for my newsletter to stay up to date on all the latest episodes.
Transcript
Speaker:

Liz Childs Kelly: Hello, and welcome

to Home to Her, the podcast that's

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dedicated to reclaiming the lost and

stolen wisdom of the sacred feminine.

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I'm your host, Liz Kelley, and on

each episode, we explore her stories

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and myths, her spiritual principles,

and most importantly, what this

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wisdom has to offer us right now.

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Thanks for being here.

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Let's get started.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Hey everybody and welcome to the show.

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This is Liz joining you as usual from

central Virginia and the unceded lands

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of the Monacan nation and I am so

glad that you are here with me today.

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And as always, if you want to know whose

native lands you might be residing on,

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go check out the map at native land.

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ca covers pretty much the entire world.

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And yeah, if you are

interested in learning about.

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The Sacred Feminine.

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First of all, you're in the right place.

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I, this is my 99th episode

that I'm recording.

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So exciting.

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So there's a pretty extensive back

catalog of podcast episodes if you're

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new here that you can move through and

hear from some really amazing people.

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And you know, if you want to

learn from me, there's a few

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ways that you can do that.

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Go check out home2her.

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com.

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There's a lot of older articles that

are out there that I've written.

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There's information about my book,

Home to Her, Walking the Transformative

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Path of the Sacred Feminine.

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That's available pretty much

wherever you buy your books.

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And it's also available on Audible,

if you like to listen, if you'd like

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to listen to my voice, to me reading.

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And yeah,

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If you want to reach out to me

and share your thoughts on this

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podcast, I would love that.

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I love hearing from you.

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Social media is a really good way

to do that, but you can also send

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me an email through my website.

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All the social media handles are at home

to her, but I'll put all of this in the

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show notes so you don't have to remember

it, but I'd love to get your feedback.

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I'd love to get your ideas on episodes.

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So please do reach out.

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So I've got a repeat guest here

and you guys know, I've, I've, if

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you've listened to the podcast for

a while, this happens a few times.

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Some of the conversations are just so

wildly rich and exciting and wonderful

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that I just know It's got to keep going.

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And my first conversation with

this guest was definitely like

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that.

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So let me go ahead and

introduce her to you right now.

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Joy Ladin is a widely published essayist

and poet, literary scholar, and nationally

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known speaker on transgender issues.

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From 2003 to 2021, she held the David and

Ruth Gotsman Chair in English at Stern

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College for Women of Yeshiva University.

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Her gender transition and return

to teaching in:

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first openly transgender employee

of an Orthodox Jewish institution.

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Joy's experience of being poetically

mentored by the Shekinah resulted in the

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completion of a book length sequence,

Shekinah Speaks, published by Selva

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Obscura in spring 2022, which she joined

peak about on this podcast in:

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It's an amazing episode, so you

should absolutely go back and

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listen to that if you haven't.

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She's also published several other

books, including, most recently,

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a new book of poetry, Family, and

Once Out of Nature, selected essays

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on the transformation of gender.

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She is the recipient of the National

Jewish Book Award for The Book of Anna.

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And she has two Lambda Literary

Award finalists, Impersonation and

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Transmigration, as well as two works

of creative nonfiction, National Jewish

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Book Award finalists, Through the

Door of Life, A Jewish Journey Between

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Genders, and Lambda Literary and Triangle

Award finalists, Soul of the Stranger.

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reading God and Torah from a transgender

perspective, the first book linked

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work of Jewish transtheology.

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And she is joining us today

from her home in New York.

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Joy, I'm so glad you're back.

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Welcome.

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Welcome.

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Joy Ladin: Thank you, Liz.

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I'm delighted to be back.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah.

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So the, our first conversation, I'm

going to go back and look, I think

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it was the first episode of 2023.

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And I just remember feeling so.

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incredibly fed and nourished

by that conversation.

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And I think, you know, usually if you

all have been listening for a while, you

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know that I usually start with people's

background and spiritual journey, and we

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had such a beautiful and rich conversation

about that on the first episode.

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So I definitely encourage you to

go back and check that one out

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and I'll put it in the show notes.

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I think we might be a nice place to start.

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Joy, is, is, if you want to tell us a

little bit about your most recent works,

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first of all, I'm very impressed that

you had two books come out at the exact

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same time, that's quite impressive.

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Joy Ladin: I know, it sounds really

impressive, it makes me feel extremely

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productive and prolific, but, and, you

know, we'll go with that, but anybody

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who's like you, who's put together a book

knows that there's a long, long lead time.

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Writing, editing, copying, editing.

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Publishing, you know, it's, it, it

takes a long time for a book to come

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together, and it really was a bit of a

coincidence that these two books, both

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of which were accumulations, a collection

of poetry and a collection of essays.

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So they're both accumulations of

mostly earlier work, and they just

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happened to come together in a

time where they could be published

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simultaneously by the same press.

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Which is very cool, but it makes

me seem like somebody who just

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writes books at the drop of a hat.

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And that's not, that's not actually true.

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Liz Childs Kelly: I have heard that about

poetry in particular, that sometimes

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the, you know, it, you could have poems

reflected for, you know, in a particular

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book that had been written over a period

of 10 years or something like that.

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Is that, is that true?

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Joy Ladin: Yeah, in family, there

are some poems that are not quite

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10 years old, but there are a couple

that go back to the mid:

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And, and then there are books that were

written very close to the time when the

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book was completed because a lot of the

book concerns and is informed by the my

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mother dying of dementia and other stuff.

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So it's a combination.

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Of an accumulation and also things that

that were close to contemporary in a

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way that was quite unusual for me and it

was personal in a way that was unusual

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because of growing up and spending most,

so much of my life in the closet as

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a trans person writing autobiography,

writing autobiographically In poetry

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really has been difficult for me to learn.

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I've said I plenty of times, but it's,

it's usually distanced from the details

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of my life in a way that many of the

poems in this book aren't, you know,

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they, they talk about things that

actually happened in very specific ways.

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And I doesn't mean

anybody other than myself.

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So it felt like a very risky.

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Book in that way, as my mother was dying,

I was getting sicker becoming house

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bound and that's another strand that's

in the book and the landlord thought

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that would be a good time to house.

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I've been living in for 9 years and

so there were a lot of changes and

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things that were closing down and that

that sense of things changing is it

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is part of the book and then another

part of the, the idea of family.

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Is presented as an expanding

set of concentric circles.

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So it starts from very, very close in and

by the end of the book, there are poems

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about being, you know, thinking of America

during the first Trump era as, as a family

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and about what it means to be, you know,

part of the family of White Americans

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though so the, the book concludes with

the autobiography of my whiteness, which

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is something that both separates me

from some of the American family, but

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also because of the racial hierarchies

that I and every other American is

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part of also connects me like that's

an unfortunate way, but it's a way that

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our, the American family is organized.

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And writing about that enabled me

to yeah, claim full membership, you

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know, with all the ambivalences.

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I don't know about you and your

family, but I had a lot of ambivalences

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about my connection with my family.

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And that comes out from the micro

level of my relationship with my

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mother to the macro level of my

sense of being part of this country.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Hmm.

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Oh, I love that.

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Yes, I do.

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Well, ambivalence.

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I don't know.

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Yes, ambivalence about family,

both at the, at that national

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level and the individual level.

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And I asked, as you were saying that

I was thinking, Hmm, I find that

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there's a tendency for me to and I

think I'm doing it intentionally to

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create a story and a narrative that

makes sense to me that says this is

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why I am in this particular family.

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This is why I have landed here

at this particular time on earth.

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And I'm kind of happy to say that it's

a, it's a supportive story usually, you

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know, but but I've also, you know, it's,

it's a, it's a story that makes sense to

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me in a positive and an affirming way.

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Like, ah, I ended up here in this

configuration to learn and to experience

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these challenges and, and also.

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Could I be wrong about that?

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Of course.

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I have no idea.

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It helps me make sense

and move through my days.

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Joy Ladin: Yeah, it's not, you know,

narratives are, I mean, they're the

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facts that we put into narratives.

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Those can be accurate or inaccurate,

but there's nothing narrative

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that's built into reality itself.

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Like life doesn't unfold narratively.

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So it's always an act of imagination.

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And it's one that human beings can't

help but engage in because Our,

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a lot of our minds, a lot of our

consciousness is structured narratively.

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There was a philosopher named Daniel

Dennett who wrote, in fact, that our

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sense of a self, of an I, that there,

you know, that sense that you have,

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that you're the star of your story.

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Now, Liz is walking downstairs, right?

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That sense, according to Daniel

Dennett, that we tell, we organize

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our life lives in terms of narrative,

not in terms of stories, but

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just the sense of ongoing story.

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to produce the sense of I, to produce

the sense that there actually is a

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coherent self that's living our lives, to

create a center around which our brains

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can organize the myriad sensations and

experiences that we have in relation

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to some kind of coherent standpoint.

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So he says, and I, this is borne

out by the, my very amateur

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understanding of the structure of

the brain and the way it works.

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Yeah, there's no there's

no I in the brain.

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There's a bunch of different parts of

the brain that are constantly saying

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things basically and telling our

lives as an unfolding story enables

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us to take these multiple voices

with the different perspectives that

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they're in charge of and organize

them in ways that make sense to us.

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So yeah, I would say you taking that

and saying, well, you know what, I'm

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going to give myself a sense of meaning

and place in the world and and purpose

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by thinking of my life as a story.

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I think that that is a beautiful practice.

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One that comes naturally to us

and that you don't have to worry.

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I think functional and dysfunctional

is maybe a more important scale

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than true and false for the

stories we tell about our lives.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Oh, I love

that functional dysfunctional.

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Yes, because what is true and not and

of course, if it's all narrative, then

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there, what is truth, you know, right?

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That's the, that gets very slippery.

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Okay, we're just riffing here now.

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So I'm like, okay, I didn't

know we're going to go here.

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But okay, I have a question about that,

then where and how do the boundaries

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of the body function and fit in?

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Do you think it's to the sense of I,

you know, if there is no sense of I

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in the brain of like, this is me, but

we still are in physical form that

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has It has limitations and boundaries

and it separates me from you and me

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from this microphone and all of all

the other things around me, right?

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I'm, I'm curious how

that, that fits into it.

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Joy Ladin: Well, our brains do do that.

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And, but, you know, we've both

had children so we both know

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that infants don't have that.

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They don't actually know at first

where they end and where someone

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else begins that's something that has

to develop as their brains develop.

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But.

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I think one of the jobs of the brain is

to map the body and, and tell us that each

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part of it is actually part of our body.

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So you have some people who

experience a form of body dysmorphia.

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Well, there are many kinds of body

dysmorphia where your brain is telling

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you that your body is something upsetting.

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Including, sometimes people feel their

brains tell them that some part of

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them Is actually not them and people

who suffer from this will sometimes

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go so far as to beg to have those

parts of themselves removed because

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it's so upsetting to have what's not

you made part, you know, part of you.

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So it's complicated.

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It is something that we

that's not automatic.

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And I think we now know

that bodies are not.

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boundaries, their eco, their

ecologies, and their ecologies that

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are contiguous with and interchanging

with other ecological systems.

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So all of that's very reassuring to

me because the dissociation that went

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along with gender dysphoria and feeling

that my body was wrong, which I think

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is that body mapping going off the

rails there has made it hard for me

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to locate my sense of self in my body.

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So for a long time, for me, my

sense of self was strongest.

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Like I couldn't talk to anybody

who I felt actually knew me,

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so I could talk to myself.

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But you know, I'm disassociated,

I'm traumatized, I'm young, so I

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don't actually understand things,

and I'm kind of bonkers because

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all of this is too much for a kid.

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So talking to myself wasn't really

a great way to stabilize my sense of

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self when I was young talking to God.

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was my way of doing it.

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And God, as you know, I

experienced as not fitting gender

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the way I didn't fit gender.

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But only really when I was talking

to God did I feel like, Oh, somebody

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else knows what I mean by I.

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And again, I don't know how it is for

people who haven't gone through a blend

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of disorienting relations to self.

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But I think that being seen as who

we are and feeling that we're being

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seen as who we are, really helps

stabilize our sense of, sense of self.

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Not necessarily more than

our bodies, but I don't know.

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Now that I'm sick, I can tell you my

body is not a great way of defining.

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Oh, and what I am.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Oh, so many things coming

up as I'm hearing you speak.

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And I want to go back to something

that kind of popped up when you, when

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you started this, this thread here,

and it was thinking about our first

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conversation and your relationship with

the Shekhinah and your book, Shekhinah

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speaks which you, you said, you know,

infants, we don't, they don't know

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their separation from anybody else.

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Right.

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And I, I was, what I thought of is

like, oh, well, To me in reading that

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particular book of poetry, there was so

much of to Shekhinah speaking to you,

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to me, to whoever is the reader, right?

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And almost in a way seeming like

she's continuously reinforcing

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that idea of you think you're

separate from me, but you're not.

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You think you are out here,

you are another thing.

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There is no existence of, there is

no me without you, or you without me,

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or however we would say that, right?

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And so

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Joy Ladin: Exactly.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah,

yeah, I don't know, I'm like,

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where was I going with that?

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But I, that, that's sort of what

sparked was that thinking of like,

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almost like a, a return of sorts

of back to that, recognizing that

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the boundaries are false anyway.

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Like, and, and perhaps we're longing

for that in our spiritual seeking

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as we move into maturity and adults.

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Yes.

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Joy Ladin: I mean, as you were just

saying, Shekhinah, I had, I think,

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talked about her melting binaries, but

subsequently through a dialogue with

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a friend who's a marvelous theological

thinker, I realized that it's more like

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she takes, she does to binaries what

giving a half twist to a strip of paper.

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does to a strip of paper.

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When you do that and close a loop.

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So if you take a strip of paper

and you run your fingers along

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it, it has two sides, right?

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Those sides never meet.

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If you give that paper one half twist

and close the loop, it only has one side.

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As you run your finger along one side,

it leads to the other, which totally

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freaked me out when I was a kid.

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I kept trying to figure out what had

happened, but the Shekhinah likes to do

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that with all kinds of binaries and what

she does with the I and you so that she

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wants to tell talk to us about who we are

in ways where if we follow that along, we

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find ourselves on her side of the binary

and she talks about herself in ways where

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if we follow that along, we find ourselves

back at ourselves and on and on in an

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infinite loop because there are two sides.

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But, they run into each other in

ways that binary thinking says

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that they can't and shouldn't.

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The divine human binary, the I U binary,

the self other binary, inside outside.

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They're all of these ways that we

simplify and organize our experience.

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And the Shekhinah is like, Oh, I know

something fun we can do with that.

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This will be really interesting.

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If you think about male female binaries,

the way they're often deployed.

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And I'm just going to reference kind

of old fashioned, but a while ago,

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I was talking to a trans guy, right?

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So born female transition

to living as a male.

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And he said, I always know when I

forgotten to take my testosterone

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shot, it's a weekly injection.

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I was like, how could you

forget to take your hormones?

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Life depends on that.

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But anyway, I always know I

forgotten to do that because.

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When I walk into a room, I start thinking

about how everybody else is feeling.

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And when I'm, you know, my

testosterone level is up, I feel

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like I'm complete, I'm integral.

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I'm rooted in my sense of self

rather than being a self dissolving

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into a series of relationships.

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And I was like, yeah, why, why do you want

the integral self instead of their, right?

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It was, it was, it was classic.

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Like, we were really like our, we had.

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This kind of old fashioned gender

binary relation, but so the Shekhinah,

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I think maybe in, in the gendered

tradition of divinity, when you have a

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divinity who's identified with maleness

and transcendence and power and all

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of those things, you have to have a

divinity who is integral and separate.

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You can't really be powerful if you're not

separate enough to exercise power, right?

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You can't be transcendent

if we can't tell.

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what's you and what's not you.

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So I think it's, I don't, I think

it's built into the tradition of using

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gender binaries to understand divinity.

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That's the way I would say it.

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Again, it's an act of imagination, ways

of trying to feel close to a divinity

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that it's incomprehensible to us.

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It's within us, it surrounds us,

it's beyond us, it constitutes us,

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all of these things, it's too much.

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It fries my brain.

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Sometimes when I have experience of

this, you know, I'll have these moments

342

:

where I'm like, I'm looking at the

leaves, and suddenly I'm realizing that,

343

:

okay, so the Shekhinah's in me, and

the Shekhinah's in the leaves, and the

344

:

Shekhinah's light shining on the leaves,

and you know, I just do that a tiny bit.

345

:

I'm stuck in a room, I'm looking

out a single window, and my mind

346

:

is blown very quickly by this.

347

:

Intellectually, Shekhinah's

everything, and there's a point

348

:

of view and everything, and you

know, it's like, I can say that.

349

:

But actually experiencing that,

my mind is, is is quite blown.

350

:

And I think the Shekhinah delights

in bringing us to that place.

351

:

So what I would say is this

female gendered concept,

352

:

imminent concept of divinity

353

:

tries to bring us to the places where

those clear senses of boundedness and

354

:

binaries, where they, they do lead to

one another as opposed to being separate.

355

:

Which is marvelous.

356

:

And scary in one kind of way, and that

transcendent, frequently male identified

357

:

sense of divinity is marvelous and

scary in a different kind of way.

358

:

And both of them are just like

fingernail bearings from the

359

:

actual nature of divinity.

360

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

361

:

I have so many thoughts about this.

362

:

How delightful that you can look out

the window and experience what I think

363

:

a lot of people need psychedelics to

feel into, or some sort of altered

364

:

experience, you know, I've got,

I've got experience in both now.

365

:

And so I can, you know, I

know exactly what you mean.

366

:

You look out the window and

it's going to melt your brain.

367

:

And then also, you know, the,

the, the door opening of the,

368

:

the psychedelic experience too,

which is similar and just louder.

369

:

I think that's been my

personal experience.

370

:

But it's, it's such a.

371

:

, it's kind of a mindfuck, isn't it?

372

:

Because what I heard in that thread of

conversation is, you know, you starting

373

:

with your friend who is describing what

it sounds like a legitimate biological

374

:

experience of that is created by

hormones, you know, like that's the

375

:

real thing like, you know, when when

You're not taking your testosterone.

376

:

You're feeling more connected and that's

like a thing that's present You In his

377

:

body as a result, I assume that, tell

me if I'm wrong, but the assumption

378

:

is being born as female, right?

379

:

So there's that piece of it that is

like, well, that, that may be there.

380

:

It sounds like that's there perhaps for a

lot of people, like that's a real thing.

381

:

And there's the, the complete like

just melting of, of, Binary's on the

382

:

other side, which is like, and, and,

and it's, it's just an and, like,

383

:

and it's all just wrapping around and

bringing itself closer and closer.

384

:

And I, so I'm trying to formulate

a question here, but I think

385

:

that I'm curious for you.

386

:

You know, thinking about the

Shekinah as like the, the guide

387

:

or the, Is that how you see her?

388

:

Is it even right to call

her a her at this point?

389

:

Like, but do you see her as sort

of a guide to, to understanding

390

:

and teasing apart some of this or

holding the complexity of all of this?

391

:

Like, and, and has that changed for you in

the last couple years since we've talked?

392

:

Joy Ladin: That is a

really great question.

393

:

I think that,

394

:

for me, there's something very

anchoring about those female pronouns

395

:

when thinking about the Shekhinah.

396

:

She is not attached to them, right?

397

:

She's not attached to any human terms.

398

:

But, you know, if you have a child

and you need to explain something

399

:

to them, you need to explain it to

them in terms they understand, right?

400

:

There's nothing more important

to your child than knowing you

401

:

exist in relation to them, right?

402

:

I would say who you are in

yourself, in my experience, far

403

:

less interesting to children than

who you are in relation to them.

404

:

And that's what our job as parents

is to be in relation to them,

405

:

and that's why it's so darn hard,

because we are ourselves also,

406

:

and there's a distance there.

407

:

So I think the Shekhinah uses human

terms, and particularly gender terms,

408

:

because gender terms are our fundamental

terms for intimate relationships.

409

:

Right, so we have other, many other

terms of relationship, like judge

410

:

and that sort of thing, but it's

gender terms that tell us who we're

411

:

like and who we're different than.

412

:

It's gender terms that many of us use to

413

:

figure out who our possible

romantic and sexual partners are.

414

:

Right?

415

:

It's gender terms that structure

our intimate family relationships.

416

:

It's all over because gender is

where traditionally, and you know,

417

:

people like me, that's why people

like me can be such a problem for

418

:

people who are who live binary gender

in traditional body based ways.

419

:

I'm not critiquing that, but

somebody like me comes along and

420

:

severs gender from the physical.

421

:

One of the things that's so powerful

about traditional binary gender is

422

:

that it connects who you are with your

body, with your physicality, the needs

423

:

that go along with this whole web of

relationships, so that just by knowing

424

:

your own body, you find yourself in a

complicated web of relationships to,

425

:

theoretically, every other human being.

426

:

That's a web that.

427

:

You know, it becomes problematic to

fit someone like me in that web, and

428

:

if there's somebody who's non binary,

it becomes even more problematic.

429

:

But every human way of understanding

everything has limits and

430

:

holes and, and problems in it.

431

:

It's not to say that, is not to say

that there's something wrong with it.

432

:

It's just to say that it's human.

433

:

But, you know, if I were a divine

being trying to figure out how to

434

:

relate to creatures who are so much

in their bodies, and who's relate to

435

:

one another so intensely in terms of

gender, I would want to use those terms.

436

:

I wouldn't want to try to invent a

whole new system of relationships, you

437

:

know, like there's no way in which the

God who's called king in traditional

438

:

liturgies is actually a king, right?

439

:

But we can, on Yom Kippur, they switch

the word in the liturgy, it switches

440

:

the word God In a number of places which

in other words, the word that points to

441

:

this beyondness that's incomprehensible

and it switches to the word King

442

:

because it saw that as a translation

of divinity into more intimate human

443

:

terms, you know, for Americans, you

know, that's not really a source of

444

:

intimacy thinking of God as King.

445

:

If you're a secular American, there's

all kinds of problems with that.

446

:

But compared to an incomprehensible

being, you can understand a King.

447

:

Even if you're like.

448

:

Nobody in relation to a king, like

you don't have status, you're not

449

:

a member of the court, you still

have a relation to the king because

450

:

you're a citizen of the kingdom.

451

:

The king has obligations to you,

you have obligations to the king,

452

:

the king has a presence, you know,

there's all kinds of ways that this

453

:

metaphor empowers human beings to have

a relationship with what's beyond us.

454

:

And that's the way the Shekhinah

uses gendered and, and other terms.

455

:

And it certainly, it

works that way for me.

456

:

There is a way in which.

457

:

Probably because of my female gender

identification, but there's a way in which

458

:

I feel I can allow for a closeness or

accept this sort of disquieting closeness.

459

:

Like, wait, where are you?

460

:

You're in me?

461

:

Are you around me?

462

:

Are you, you know, like this

kind of, that it's easier for

463

:

me in those gendered terms.

464

:

As I thought about this, as I, like,

theologized it as opposed to working

465

:

on the poems, I have found it, you

know, the abstraction of the gender.

466

:

It makes it hard for the gender

part to function in the same way.

467

:

And when I went back and I think I sent

you the most recent writing that I've

468

:

done on this trans Shekhinah, so I got

a trans theology assignment and I hadn't

469

:

been thinking about trans theology.

470

:

I was very into it and the soul

is a stranger and then I wasn't

471

:

thinking about it because I was

into the Shekhinah but okay, I'll

472

:

try to do, look at the Shekhinah

from a transtheological perspective.

473

:

And that led me to the

origins of the Shekhinah.

474

:

The, this comes up in the

early rabbinic period.

475

:

So the early centuries CE, I

think actually is part of the same

476

:

crisis and creative eruption in

Judaism that led to Christianity.

477

:

I think both the idea of Jesus, an

incarnated aspect of divinity, and

478

:

the Shekhinah emerges to answer

the question of, we're experiencing

479

:

God as very far away, given the

Roman domination of everything.

480

:

And for me, this has a tremendous

resonance with the way that I feel about

481

:

the political situation in America.

482

:

How can we feel close to God?

483

:

Because when we look around the world.

484

:

We don't see the power of God.

485

:

We see the power of people who, to us,

seem hard and cruel and amoral at best

486

:

and often quite a bit worse than that.

487

:

How can we locate divinity?

488

:

How can we feel close to

divinity in this world?

489

:

How can we feel that the

divine understands our lives

490

:

and what we're going through?

491

:

Because, in order to protect divinity

from this world, so if you say, well,

492

:

God's everything, God's the Romans who

just killed a million Jews and exiled a

493

:

million more that is problematic, right?

494

:

And so now we're going

to bless that God, right?

495

:

So we want to, and if we say, well,

you know, in the ancient world, you

496

:

would say you can tell how powerful a

God is by their political fortunes of

497

:

the nations they're associated with.

498

:

Well, that's not a good

way of locating God.

499

:

If the Romans have won everything.

500

:

So I think the idea of God as transcendent

and beyond becomes very important to

501

:

secure the existence of a divinity.

502

:

You want to have an outside to oppression.

503

:

You want to say, well, okay, you may

control my body, my soul, you may

504

:

ravage my community, but there is that

which is beyond you to which you are,

505

:

as Isaiah says, a drop in the bucket.

506

:

You know, when Isaiah says the

nations are a drop in the bucket,

507

:

that's the transcendent divinity.

508

:

In Isaiah, in the biblical period,

there isn't a distinction between

509

:

transcendence and imminence.

510

:

Isaiah describes God in terms

that go all across that spectrum,

511

:

and the Hebrew Bible does.

512

:

But in this crisis, I think that there

needed to be some kind of imminent sense

513

:

of divinity to answer this question,

because safeguarding God from history

514

:

by imagining God as transcending

history created this gulf people

515

:

found hard to live with, particularly

when they were I think both Jesus

516

:

and Shekinah were responses to that.

517

:

So when the rabbis start to

imagine the Shekinah, the

518

:

word is grammatically female.

519

:

But to my great disappointment, 'cause

as I say, I was very invested in the

520

:

pronouns here in terms of my own idea

of the Shekinah, the rabbis who are

521

:

as patriarchal as you can imagine, you

know, the rabbis of the Talmud, they're

522

:

really not where you wanna look for

innovations in terms of gender thinking.

523

:

They don't care about the

Shekinah's femaleness at all.

524

:

They, they use the case

endings and the, and the verbs.

525

:

What they're interested in is the

Shekinah is a way of understanding

526

:

divine presence in the human realm and

the way that they imagine the Shekinah.

527

:

See, the first thing I would do

if I was imagining the Shekinah,

528

:

is I would say, well, where is the

Shekinah and when is the Shekinah?

529

:

And how does one relate to the Shekinah?

530

:

What are the attributes of the Shekinah?

531

:

How does the Shekinah relate to the

other ways that we have of thinking?

532

:

About divinity, right?

533

:

These are all to me, logical questions and

later Jewish tradition uses binary gender

534

:

to answer a lot of those questions, right?

535

:

The rabbis, for some reason,

didn't care about this.

536

:

So, you know, one rabbi answers the,

you know, says the Shekhinah mostly

537

:

lives in the east and then right after

that, another rabbi says the Shekhinah

538

:

mostly dwells in the west and another

rabbi says, The Shekhinah is present

539

:

whenever two people are talking about God.

540

:

And another says, the Shekhinah left

the world when the temple was destroyed.

541

:

And another rabbi says, even after the

temple was destroyed, the Shekhinah's

542

:

presence continued to dwell there.

543

:

And nobody says, wait a minute guys,

all of these things can't be true.

544

:

And there are many more.

545

:

This is just a small selection.

546

:

So in, that's what I ended up, the trans

perspective ended up showing me was

547

:

that for them, it was more important

that the Shekhinah be in the aspect

548

:

of divinity that can be in all kinds

of relations to human realm and human

549

:

experience simultaneously without

any problem, like the transcendence.

550

:

Sets up this binary or you're

either out there or you're in here.

551

:

That was not what they were interested in.

552

:

They needed an idea of eminence

that was more like the scale

553

:

on a trombone slide, you know.

554

:

You know, all up and down.

555

:

And so that really, that's I think why

they were not interested in gendering

556

:

the Shafina, particularly because

binary gender is about Identifying

557

:

everyone in relation to everyone else

and fixing those ideas of presence.

558

:

So later Jewish mystics who were

interested in that, they were interested

559

:

in ontology and cosmology and how does

the material world with its suffering and

560

:

evil come out of this boundless being?

561

:

You know, these are big questions.

562

:

They start using binary gender to

think about those processes and

563

:

they put the gender in relation

to other aspects of divinity.

564

:

But, so the next Trans Shekhinah

essay that I'm hoping to do is about

565

:

the gendering of the Shekhinah,

who kind of is incarnated by

566

:

human beings into binary gender.

567

:

So she's, you know, nominally female for

a long time, but she's not really part of

568

:

a binary gender system until the mystics

come along and they inscribe her into it.

569

:

Even when they do, and I think that

one of the dangers of the way I was

570

:

talking about her, the divine female.

571

:

It makes it seem like this is a binary

category right here, this way or that, the

572

:

way my trans friend and I were talking.

573

:

Well, you either feel like this

with your hormones or you feel

574

:

like that with your hormones.

575

:

That is not the way they deal with the

Shekhinah even after they gender her.

576

:

There are multiple

female divinity figures.

577

:

There's the upper mother and the lower

mother and there's the princess and

578

:

the daughter and the lost princess and

the the mother of wisdom and there's.

579

:

A character I don't understand, but

who sounds terrifying, called the

580

:

Metrona, who often comes with armies.

581

:

And, you know, in other words,

they did not see just assigning the

582

:

Shekhinah as female as homogenizing

or simplifying the Shekhinah.

583

:

Because they didn't see the female as

homogenous or simplistic, the way binary

584

:

gender encourages us to think about.

585

:

Liz Childs Kelly: And in a way we are

so, limited by our, by our, our brains.

586

:

Yes.

587

:

But also the culture that we are in,

like, it would make total sense to me.

588

:

Like we, even if we don't want

to be, or we think like we're

589

:

bigger thinkers than, than us.

590

:

You know, those that are locked

into binary, that's the framework

591

:

that we're operating within.

592

:

So it makes sense to me that then the

answer becomes like this, this polarity,

593

:

this other side of the, you know, it looks

like an either or situation and it's not.

594

:

And, and as you were saying

that, I'm thinking so for.

595

:

For viewers, if you're watching

this on YouTube, you can see behind

596

:

me, there's a painting on the wall

and it kind of, it looks like a, a

597

:

multifaceted crystal go back and listen

to episode two or three of this podcast.

598

:

It's actually a painting of my vagina.

599

:

So there you go.

600

:

But what I was thinking is it

looks like a multifaceted crystal.

601

:

It's got all these different colors.

602

:

And what I was thinking is that you

were saying that it's like, gosh, our

603

:

understanding of divinity is like, We

can't even talk in evolutionary terms.

604

:

We're not evolving towards anything.

605

:

It's like, now we're just observing

this one little crystal aspect.

606

:

We're like, Oh, I didn't see that before.

607

:

Let's go really deep

and look at that aspect.

608

:

Let's like, let's, let's delve into that.

609

:

And then, Oh, like, look at this one.

610

:

And that's kind of what came up

as you were talking about this.

611

:

This historical reason

for the transcendent God.

612

:

I'm like, Oh, right.

613

:

Like, so you would pull out that

facet and go, well, God, yes.

614

:

Like there's this piece of the

divine that I didn't look at before.

615

:

And so what I'm wondering, well, if

that resonates with you or not, but

616

:

that Like, where we are now, like,

like, if we're this, if this facet

617

:

of the Shekinah, or the Shekinah

is a facet, either way, right?

618

:

Like, I don't know.

619

:

What and why we're looking at

her now, and like, what does

620

:

that mean for this particular

621

:

Joy Ladin: moment

622

:

Liz Childs Kelly: of where we are in time?

623

:

Joy Ladin: Well, I think the Shekhinah,

I experience her as laughing a lot.

624

:

It's always been this very, her

voice has always been very amused.

625

:

When I was working on Shekhinah Speaks,

I, the voice was very familiar to me and

626

:

I realized that I had heard it without,

Recognizing it, not just from the time

627

:

that I was a child, always laughing,

and laughing because it's outside

628

:

of time, and seeing us as a whole.

629

:

Because whenever, I don't know about

you, but whenever I'm trying to

630

:

relate to divinity, I mean, I was

saying that, I'm looking out the

631

:

window, like, this is a teeny little

attempt at an experience of divinity,

632

:

but it's bound by time and space.

633

:

Yes.

634

:

Right?

635

:

And it's about What is, and I think

that Shekhinah is not so much concerned

636

:

with isness as with relationship.

637

:

The Shekhinah is a, an aspect of

divinity that wants to be in complete

638

:

and total relationship with us.

639

:

And there are a couple of sides of this.

640

:

So one is the Shekinah is the aspect

of divinity that's always with us.

641

:

Whether the Shekhinah likes it or not, and

another is the aspect of divinity that is

642

:

responsive, very responsive, the presence

or absence is responsive to our behavior.

643

:

And the third is that the Shekhinah

wants a consensual relationship.

644

:

She wants us to.

645

:

Not give in and say, well, you know,

since you're the eminent aspect of a

646

:

divinity, you're the ultimate peeping Tom.

647

:

There's no way that I can conceal

anything about myself from you.

648

:

That's not the goal.

649

:

The goal is for us to realize that we can,

we can choose to share our subjectivities,

650

:

our lives with the Shekhinah.

651

:

Like, I try to remember to do that.

652

:

I am Not been been finding this very,

very difficult since the elections

653

:

weaving back to your question.

654

:

But you know, if I'm experiencing

something good, I'll try to remember

655

:

to say, Oh, you know, please enjoy

this with me and so to try to enjoy

656

:

it for two, because I feel like what

are we good for, for God, if not,

657

:

To offer human experiences, like why

does divinity need humanity, if not to

658

:

experience what humanity can experience.

659

:

So I feel like the Shekhinah, when

I'm doing that, I'm following the

660

:

Shekhinah's prompt to stop thinking

about, like, you're the Shekhinah,

661

:

you know, I'm this, and we're that,

and you know, all of this naming and

662

:

identifying, and think about myself.

663

:

As someone who can be in relationship

with what is absolutely beyond me, and

664

:

who is, that that's not a loss of myself.

665

:

There are paths, spiritual

paths, where that's the loss and

666

:

dissolution of the self, but the

Shekhinah delights in ourselves.

667

:

So she doesn't want us to, I think,

lose ourselves in her, because

668

:

why create us, if that's the goal.

669

:

So this becomes, as I said, I've

been, in the current moment, I've I

670

:

think like many, well, I'm just going

to speak for trans and non binary

671

:

folks but all of the groups who are

in the line of fire, I would include

672

:

women who are not enthusiastic about

patriarchy in old fashioned forms.

673

:

So a lot of Americans are in

what I think is the line of fire

674

:

of the incoming administration.

675

:

So, I'm shocked.

676

:

Shock has gone away, but

the, the terror and the,

677

:

anyway, I've reacted in my time honored

survival mechanism from childhood

678

:

with dissociation and I can't feel the

presence of the Shekhinah if I can't feel.

679

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah.

680

:

Joy Ladin: So I'm trying to turn it

off because it's a self protection

681

:

mechanism that actually And maybe it

did help protect me in some way when

682

:

I was a kid, but I was a tiny child

trying to protect myself, so it's

683

:

not surprising that it turns out to

be dysfunctional when I'm an adult.

684

:

I'm trying to turn it off because

I don't think I can go through this

685

:

period without being able to answer

the question, where is the presence

686

:

of divinity in my life, in this world?

687

:

So, the very same crisis that I see

the rabbis in the early centuries

688

:

A common era as as experiencing.

689

:

And when I was working on Trans Shekhinah,

as you can see, that's unlike, it's

690

:

the opposite of Shekhinah Speaks.

691

:

It's, it's an essay.

692

:

It's intellectual, it's not

experiential, which I felt bad about,

693

:

but it was something that I could

do in this state of not feeling.

694

:

But I also felt urgent, I

thought, and it's more important.

695

:

And ever to do this work that helps

people connect with the imminent aspect of

696

:

divinity, which is traditionally in this

binary system, gendered female because

697

:

I think a lot of people will be having

this question of, yeah, where can I find

698

:

divinity in a world that's where power

has come to be occupied by people like

699

:

this divinity, just somewhere out there.

700

:

Where I'm a drop, I'm part of the drop

in the bucket that this nation is.

701

:

Well, that's comforting in one way

and it's kind of sucky in another way.

702

:

Yes.

703

:

Right?

704

:

So I feel like I personally need to do

this work and understand the Shekhinah

705

:

in her many incarnations, which I didn't

know when I wrote Shekhinah Speaks, that

706

:

she is an evolving, that our relation

to the Shekhinah and ways of imagining

707

:

her and conceiving her Keep changing and

evolving in relation to our our needs.

708

:

That feels quite urgent for me

personally, and I feel like hopefully

709

:

for other people, and it's an

example of something larger that I

710

:

think I don't have a thing against

institutionalized religions in themselves.

711

:

They're like every other institutions,

they do horrible things, they do wonderful

712

:

things, you know but something that

I think that they can't help, but do.

713

:

When you institutionalize ideas of

divinity, which religions kind of do,

714

:

is you weaken people's connection to

their own theological imagination.

715

:

Putting it that way is too abstract a

theology, I mean, we've been, you know,

716

:

that's an area of study, it's abstract.

717

:

This is not abstract.

718

:

We can't have a relationship with

divinity in any way, the divine

719

:

feminine, the divine masculine, any

way, without exercising our imagination.

720

:

Because again, divinity is It's

just everything all at once, and

721

:

way too much for our mind to process

if we want to have a relationship.

722

:

We need to exercise our agency

and our imagination and say, well,

723

:

how am I going to relate to this?

724

:

What aspect of divinity

do I want to relate to?

725

:

That becomes idolatry if we say,

and therefore, God is X or God is Y.

726

:

That's idolatry.

727

:

We say, really, the human terms I've come

up with for God, my act of imagination,

728

:

my I have revealed God's essence and I'm

not willing to see anything about God

729

:

other than what fits in my little box.

730

:

That's idolatry.

731

:

But I don't think we can have a

relationship just the way young

732

:

children can have a relationship

with their parents without just

733

:

focusing on the parent aspect of their

parents and ignoring the complexity

734

:

and messiness of the human beings.

735

:

You know, your three year old

doesn't, really does not want to

736

:

see your complexity and messiness.

737

:

They can't handle it, right?

738

:

And I think that, so they just,

they imagine you as being all mommy.

739

:

So I think that institutionalized

religions often alienate us from that

740

:

power that we have to set the terms for

our relationship with divinity, to imagine

741

:

those terms in ways that we need to feel

close to divinity, not to say what God is.

742

:

But to say how we can let God in

743

:

Liz Childs Kelly: in a way, this is

calling to mind what we were talking

744

:

about at the very beginning, and it's not

exactly the same, but about creating story

745

:

or right that we create for ourselves,

like that's going to be supportive and

746

:

nurturing and what's also coming up.

747

:

I'm pretty sure this came up for me

during our first conversation, but I

748

:

don't think I said it on the recording.

749

:

I think I told you later, but I'll, I'll

share it here too, is the first time I did

750

:

mushrooms and how I had this incredible

sense of like, I had a very Alice in

751

:

Wonderland sense of like, I remember

saying to my friends that I was doing this

752

:

with, I'm like, there's nobody in charge.

753

:

There's no one in charge.

754

:

There's no one in charge, which is

actually quite terrifying to me.

755

:

It all just felt like, like, Just sort

of insanity and and and in that I was

756

:

kind of reaching for where is she?

757

:

Where is this divine feminine that I have

come to know and that's nurturing and

758

:

that has supported me and held me So much

in all of these challenging transitions

759

:

in my life over the last 10 years.

760

:

Where is she?

761

:

Where did she go?

762

:

And the The, the answer that I got was

that the vastness of it, it's just,

763

:

it's fucking laughable that I would

ever think that I could grasp it.

764

:

Like I, I can't, like you

said, fingernails, I would say

765

:

like a cell of a fingernail.

766

:

That's how it felt like it was.

767

:

And so of course to my limited,

if not altered state, but still my

768

:

limited state, it looked like chaos.

769

:

It looked like just crazy town

to me, but that I had found.

770

:

The aspect of divinity in that,

you know, kind of the way that I

771

:

experienced the divine feminine.

772

:

I'm touching my necklace cause I've

got, you know, that I experienced

773

:

Mary is kind of a cosmic void, like

something much bigger than what

774

:

the Christian church has given us.

775

:

But that I had found her because

that's what I needed in this lifetime

776

:

to, to, that's the, what, Was the

healing aspect of her that was holding

777

:

me that could meet me where I was.

778

:

I'm feeling very emotional

as I'm sharing this with you.

779

:

So interesting.

780

:

I'm like tearing up a little

bit, but then I needed her.

781

:

That's what I needed in this lifetime.

782

:

And that's what she's giving me.

783

:

That's what divinity was, was

meeting me there in that space.

784

:

It's like a, almost like a co

created relationship of sorts.

785

:

Yeah.

786

:

Joy Ladin: Yes.

787

:

Liz Childs Kelly: And yet of course

she's like this big giant thing that I

788

:

will never, it's not even a she, like

it's a thing that is so big and giant

789

:

and cosmic that I can't even remotely

attempt to, to get to the fullness

790

:

of it, nor should I even try, like

what's, that's not even the point.

791

:

Joy Ladin: Divine human relationships

are always human relationships.

792

:

God is always limited by the

terms of human relationships.

793

:

Just the way, if you have a cat.

794

:

Your relationship with your cat is

always limited by the terms the cat sets.

795

:

Yes.

796

:

And so God needed you, you know, I mean

I'm imagining divinity as, well the

797

:

Shekhinah, I don't know about divinity in

general, but the Shekhinah I think values

798

:

so much our needs, our desperations our

cries because that is emotionally, we,

799

:

we are opening the door to relationship

or setting the terms to relationship.

800

:

We're, we're, we're, we're giving one

of the sadnesses for me of my children

801

:

growing up was I reached a point where I

couldn't just take care of their needs.

802

:

Yeah, they didn't have needs

that I could just take care of.

803

:

Yes.

804

:

And I project that onto

divinity of like, Oh, wonderful.

805

:

Liz, you have a need for

me that I can take care of.

806

:

Because one thing I can always

give you is my presence.

807

:

Yeah.

808

:

Because my presence is always with you.

809

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah.

810

:

I love that.

811

:

And I'm, I don't know, Joy,

I'm still like, cause we're, I

812

:

know we're almost out of time.

813

:

I just feel like we can just set a

recorder up and well, we, you know,

814

:

One of us is going to run out of energy

sooner or later, I would imagine.

815

:

So we need to take break, but you just

keep the dialogue going for hours for me,

816

:

but I'm, I'm wanting to, like, I kind of

want to circle back and we've, we've been

817

:

dancing around it, but the back to that

question of like, and what now, like, here

818

:

we have the Shekhinah, here we have this

shit show of where we are, like what now?

819

:

And even now could be literally right now.

820

:

Like what feels.

821

:

Present and important,

you know, in this moment.

822

:

Joy Ladin: Well, I have, I don't

think I've devalued the transcendent

823

:

aspect of divinity that much exactly,

but one part of it I never got, which

824

:

is the idea of the fear of God that

felt very patriarchal and damaging.

825

:

But just the other day I was thinking, you

know, I am consumed by this fear of these

826

:

people who are not worthy of being afraid

of no matter how much power they wield.

827

:

I am making myself so small to be afraid

of them and suddenly I thought, Oh, right.

828

:

That's what the fear of God gives you.

829

:

It says there's only one

being to be afraid of, right?

830

:

Human beings can mess with you.

831

:

They can hurt you.

832

:

They can screw you up.

833

:

They can break your heart, but there's

only one being to be afraid of.

834

:

And fortunately that's a being,

you know, who sustains and

835

:

loves and creates us, right?

836

:

So.

837

:

It's a complicated relationship.

838

:

It's a Godzilla meets

Bambi relationship, right?

839

:

That's where the fear of God comes from.

840

:

Like, oh my, right?

841

:

Overwhelming.

842

:

So that is one thing that I feel like

I'm learning, but the Shekhinah is giving

843

:

me something else, which is, yeah, I

don't think I'm making it through if I

844

:

can't continue to find divinity in my

life, in myself, in the world around me.

845

:

You know, not in the political order.

846

:

I, I honestly, I think that

the idea of democracy, it's

847

:

an enlightenment invention.

848

:

It's a secularizing invention.

849

:

It's not a place to look for

God one way or the other.

850

:

But, One of the things that

authoritarianism does is it

851

:

wants all of us to feel devalued.

852

:

It wants all of us to feel insignificant.

853

:

It wants all of us to feel like there are

people who matter and we are not them.

854

:

You know, for us to become as

like the the spies who went into

855

:

the land of Canaan said we were

like grasshoppers in our own eyes.

856

:

And I think that to survive

psychically and spiritually.

857

:

We need to not be grasshoppers, we need

to not feel like grasshoppers, we need

858

:

to not give in to the, to that kind

of fear, and the humiliation, and the

859

:

trolling, and the thing, the triggering,

all this stuff that's done to put us

860

:

into these to trigger these responses,

and for me, locating the presence of

861

:

divinity, remembering the presence of

divinity, remembering that it doesn't

862

:

matter who won the last election, stars

are still stars, The universe is still

863

:

the universe, Earth is still Earth,

Humanity is still Humanity, right?

864

:

And the Shekhinah is still here with us.

865

:

And there's nothing that we're about

to go through where she is not going

866

:

to be here with us, reminding us that,

yeah, we are tied together by an by

867

:

a binary warping umbilical cord such

that we're being nourished by her and

868

:

we are giving her a place to dwell.

869

:

All of that is outside any of the

control of these petty dictators.

870

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah, I just, I love

that you said that so much because

871

:

you just sparked a really, you know,

ignant memory in me, which is:

872

:

And, you know, I certainly didn't

think that Hillary was a bad person.

873

:

Perfect candidate in any way, but I

was so very excited about the idea of

874

:

finally my gosh we're gonna have a female

president even if she's mediocre, like

875

:

how wonderful like to just to experience

it and I remember watching the election

876

:

returns with my nasty woman cocktail

in hand because you know my now ex

877

:

husband and I were so confident that

you know she was gonna win and just

878

:

watching the returns and Realizing just

with that sinking feeling that this

879

:

was the end Not that a very different

outcome was, was headed our way.

880

:

And I remember at some point we turned

off the TV and we looked at each

881

:

other and we're just like, Oh my God.

882

:

Oh, oh my God.

883

:

You know, we're thinking about our, you

know, the time my kids were two and five.

884

:

I think it just was like, what , this

is just, they're in preschool.

885

:

This goes against like literally

everything you teach preschoolers

886

:

about how to treat people.

887

:

You know, like we just elected

somebody who doesn't even understand

888

:

the basic rules that we're

teaching two and three year olds.

889

:

You know, like, what are we gonna say?

890

:

And it, and I, and I

was like, you know what?

891

:

Let's go outside.

892

:

Let's go outside.

893

:

It's California.

894

:

So we could do that.

895

:

And we went and we sat outside

and we stared up at the night sky

896

:

and the stars were just beautiful.

897

:

And it was this clear, perfect night.

898

:

And it was exactly what you're saying,

which is that there was something else.

899

:

There's something else beyond the TV

box and the people and the, you know,

900

:

the, the shit show that was yet to come.

901

:

And, you know, all of the, the

imagined shit show that was in our

902

:

heads, like there was something,

there was something else.

903

:

Existed beyond that.

904

:

And so I'm so grateful for you

bringing that memory back to me

905

:

because it was so comforting.

906

:

And

907

:

Joy Ladin: true, it has the

advantage of actually being true.

908

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah,

909

:

Joy Ladin: you know, the Shekinah wants

us to remember we have the power to

910

:

access the presence of divinity, because

divinity is always with us waiting to

911

:

be recognized longing to recognize.

912

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah.

913

:

Well, I don't want to end this

conversation and yet it is that time.

914

:

And it just, it's just

so, it's so beautiful.

915

:

I've been, I've been contemplating

different ideas about power.

916

:

And so just even you using those,

that language, like more to

917

:

come on that listeners, cause

it's emerging for me right now.

918

:

But

919

:

joy, just such a deep, deep

gratitude for you as always and

920

:

being in conversation with you.

921

:

It's such a blessing.

922

:

Thank you for making the time to be here.

923

:

Joy Ladin: You're so welcome.

924

:

And those feelings.

925

:

Just like last time, those feelings

of gratitude are, are so mutual.

926

:

Thank you so much for, for being in this

conversation with me and for being a place

927

:

where conversations like this can happen.

928

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah, oh

gosh, it's so my pleasure.

929

:

And what I'm wanting to say to you

listeners is y'all, we are, we are lucky

930

:

not in all ways, but in some ways, and in

this way to live in this time and to be

931

:

able to be part of dialogues like this.

932

:

And and I'm lucky to get to, you

know, my, 99th episode to get to do

933

:

this and to also know that you're

out there and you're listening and

934

:

you care and you want to tune in.

935

:

It is such a gift.

936

:

I can't even tell you.

937

:

So just, just big gratitude

all the way around.

938

:

And you know, until I talk to

you again, take such good care.

939

:

Of yourselves and I'll,

I'll be back with you

940

:

soon.

941

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Home to Her

is hosted by me, Liz Kelley.

942

:

You can visit me online at hometoher.

943

:

com, where you can find show

notes and other episodes.

944

:

You can read articles about the

Sacred Feminine, and you'll also

945

:

find a link to join the Home to

Her Facebook group for lots more

946

:

discussion and exploration of Her.

947

:

You can also follow me on Instagram,

at home to her, to keep up to

948

:

date with the latest episodes.

949

:

Thanks so much for joining us

and we'll see you back here soon.

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About the Podcast

Home to Her
Exploring the roots of female power and wisdom
The Home to Her podcast is dedicated to elevating ancient feminine wisdom via the exploration of herstory, mythology, philosophy and more. Join host Liz Childs Kelly for intimate conversations with acclaimed authors, artists, teachers, poets and mystics, each of whom will help us uncover our unheard stories and reclaim the roots of the ancient female power in our own lives.

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Liz Kelly