Episode 96

Transforming a Paradigm of Domination with Riane Eisler

Published on: 18th November, 2024

On the latest episode, I'm joined by legendary systems scientist, futurist and cultural historian Dr. Riane Eisler. Riane is the recipient of many honors, such as the Distinguished Peace Leadership Award earlier given to the Dalai Lama, and is the author of many books, including The Chalice and the Blade, now in its 57th US printing and 27 foreign editions, The Real Wealth of Nations, hailed by Nobel Peace Laureate Desmond Tutu as "a template for the better world we have been so urgently seeking," and Nurturing Our Humanity, Oxford University Press, 2019, co-authored with Douglas P. Fry. 

Riane’s innovative whole-systems research offers new perspectives and practical tools for constructing a less violent, more egalitarian, gender-balanced, and sustainable future. She is the President of the Center for Partnership Systems, which provides practical applications of her work, and Editor in Chief of the online Interdisciplinary Journal of Partnership Studies published at the University of Minnesota.

On this episode, we discuss:

  • Riane's early childhood experience as a Jewish refugee whose family fled Austria to escape the Nazis, and how that experience, as well as the loss of many family members during the Holocaust, caused her to question her understanding of God
  • The difference between cultures of domination and partnership cultures, which she outlines in her groundbreaking work The Chalice and the Blade, and the shifts she's seen in culture since the book was first published
  • The subtle pervasiveness of dominator culture, and how we can find it rooted in our language, as well as all the underpinnings of society
  • Riane's focus on violence in the home, and how it directly correlates to violence in other aspects of society
  • Plus, we riff on the magic of snakes and their ancient connections to the Divine Feminine (always a favorite topic of mine!)

Notes related to this episode:

  • You can learn more about Riane, her many books and her extense work at her website: https://rianeeisler.com/
  • You can learn more about the Center for Partnership Systems at https://centerforpartnership.org/resources/riane-eisler/
  • During this episode, Riane mentioned parapsychologist Thelma Moss, as well as the ancient Anatolian civilization Catal Huyuk. She also mentioned the evangelical Christian organization Promise Keepers.

And here are a few more details about this show and my work:

  • If you’d like to know whose ancestral tribal lands you currently reside on, you can look up your address here: https://native-land.ca/
  • You can also visit the Coalition of Natives and Allies for more helpful educational resources about Indigenous rights and history.
  • Please – if you love this podcast and/or have read my book, please consider leaving me a review, and thank you for supporting my work!
  • You can also access video episodes on the Home to Her YouTube channel
  • For more Sacred Feminine goodness and to stay up to date on all episodes, please follow me on Instagram: @hometoher.
  • To dive into conversation about the Sacred Feminine, join the Facebook group: / hometoher
  • And to read about the Sacred Feminine, check out my award-winning book Home to Her: Walking the Transformative Path of the Sacred Feminine (Womancraft Publishing), available on Audible and wherever you buy your books!. If you've read it, your reviews on Goodreads and Amazon are greatly appreciated!
Transcript
Speaker:

Hello, and welcome to Home to Her,

the podcast that's dedicated to

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reclaiming the lost and stolen

wisdom of the sacred feminine.

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I'm your host, Liz Kelley, and on

each episode, we explore her stories

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and myths, her spiritual principles,

and most importantly, what this

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wisdom has to offer us right now.

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Thanks for being here.

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Let's get started.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Hey everybody,

this is Liz joining you as usual from

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Central Virginia and the unceded lands

of the Monacan Nation, and I am so

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glad that you are here with me today.

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And as always, if you would like to know

whose native lands you are residing on, be

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sure to check out the map at native land.

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ca.

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It's a map of the entire world,

super helpful, and I always put that

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in the show notes, so if you don't

remember, you can check it out there.

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And If you are interested in learning

more about the sacred feminine, there's

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so many ways that you can do that.

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You could certainly check out

past podcast episodes here.

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We've got almost a hundred at this point

that you can go through, but there's some

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other ways that you can learn from me

specifically to go on over to Home to Her.

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You'll find articles there and you'll

also find the past podcast episodes.

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And then you can find information

about my book, Home to Her,

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Walking the Transformative Path

of the Sacred Feminine, which is

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published by WomanCraft Publishing.

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That's available wherever you buy

your books and also on Audible now.

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And it would be great if you wanted

to keep up with episodes and whatnot

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to follow me on social media.

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You can find me at Home to

Her on Instagram and Facebook.

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And I love your feedback.

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Social is a really good

way to reach out to me.

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So if you have questions or comments on

the most recent episodes, suggestions,

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I always love to hear from you.

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And so with that, I want to

tell you about my guest today.

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Her work has been hugely influential to

me, and I'm guessing that if you have

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been on the Sacred Feminine path for a

while, it may have been for you as well.

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She's been on my wish list of podcast

guests since the very beginning,

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and I also think if you have delved

into the historical record of the

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Sacred Feminine at all, I think the

odds are very high for having me.

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That you've heard of her

or read some of her work.

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So I am so honored that she's with me

today, and I'm just thrilled to be able

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to share this conversation with you.

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Dr.

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Riane Eisler is the recipient of many

honors, such as the Distinguished

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Peace Leadership Award earlier given

to the Dalai Lama, and internationally

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known for her groundbreaking

contributions as a systems scientist,

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futurist, and cultural historian.

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She is author of many books, including The

Chalice and the Blade, now in its 57th U.

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S.

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printing and 27 foreign editions,

The Real Wealth of Nations,

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hailed by Nobel Peace Laureates.

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Desmond Tutu as a template for

the better world we have been so

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urgently seeking, and Nurturing

Our Humanity from Oxford University

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Press, co authored with Douglas P.

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Fry.

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Riane's innovative whole systems

research offers new perspectives and

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practical tools for constructing a

less violent, more egalitarian, gender

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balanced, and sustainable future.

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Eisler is president of the Center for

Partnership Systems, which provides

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practical applications of her work,

and she's editor in chief of the

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online Interdisciplinary Journal

of Partnership Studies published

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at the University of Minnesota.

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She keynotes conferences worldwide,

has taught at many universities,

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has written hundreds of articles

and contributions to both scholarly

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and popular books, pioneered the

application of human rights standards

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to women and children, has addressed

the UN General Assembly, and consults

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to businesses and governments on the

partnership model introduced by her work.

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And she is joining us today from her home

on the Monterey Peninsula in California.

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Riane thank you so much for being here.

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It's such an honor to be with you.

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Riane Eisler: Well, it's a great pleasure

for me to be on your show and with you.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Thank you.

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And I was just thinking as I was

reading out all of these impressive

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accomplishments, I've been thinking

about this a lot lately, how

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how we have choice in, in how we

choose to show up in the world.

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And That I think so many people that have

been on this show and, and others that

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I've encountered that are doing work that

touches what I do, it feels like a very

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sacred mission and that also we don't

ever have to say yes to those callings.

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We can choose to do something

that's perhaps less challenging.

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And so I just want to say on behalf

of me and my listeners and all of us

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around the world, so much for saying

yes to such a, an incredible life path.

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I think we are really,

really benefiting from it.

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Riane Eisler: That's

more of a calling for me.

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Liz Childs Kelly: I absolutely understand.

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Yeah.

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Well, I love to start with guests on

hearing about spiritual backgrounds,

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your spiritual background growing up.

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And part of the reason why I like

to start there is I'm just curious.

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I enjoy hearing these things, but

also I think it's really interesting

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to, to tie that thread through.

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the beginnings and how that has showed up

in your life and in your work including

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perhaps the pieces that you wanted to

keep and, and even the ones that perhaps

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pointed you in different directions.

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So if that's all right with you,

I would love to start there.

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Riane Eisler: I certainly can start

because the passion that I have

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for this work is really deeply

rooted in my childhood experiences.

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I was a child refugee with

my parents from the Nazis.

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And from one day to the next,

My whole world was changed from

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being this cute little girl that

people would pat on the head.

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I, my parents and I, we became

hunted with license to kill.

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And so that's where my passion

is rooted and really where my

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spiritual journey is rooted too.

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Because I, we were able, my parents were

able to get an entry permit to Cuba, one

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of only two places that would take Jewish

refugees fleeing Nazis at that time.

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And so I grew up in the

industrial slums of Havana.

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And every night I would

join my father in praying.

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The, which is the Jewish prayer.

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And at the end of it, I would silently

pray that everyone by name now, 'cause

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I knew the names of all of those who

were left behind would be all right.

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And that space.

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Collapsed when I saw the newsreels

years later of the survivors of

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the Nazi concentration camps.

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And I found out that most of my

extended family, grandparents,

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aunts, uncles, cousins were killed.

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by the Nazis.

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And so my spiritual journey was a rather

jagged one because I thought that the

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god that I had prayed to was either

didn't exist or was mad or crazy or evil.

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And it was really only years

later when I came back to the

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questions of my childhood.

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Which were obviously questions, well,

questions that I think many of us

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have asked at some point in our lives.

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Does it have to be with,

you know, this way?

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As we're told, you know, by stories

like Original Sin, right, we're evil,

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or Selfish Genes, which really, they

fight each other, because one is secular

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and one is religious, but it's the

same message, we're bad, we have to be

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rigidly controlled from the top, right?

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Starting with God fearing.

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And so years later, I came back to these

questions of, as I said, does it have to

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be this way when we humans have so, such

a capacity for caring for sensitivity?

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Why has there been so much

cruelty, so much violence?

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And I set out to answer these questions.

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And lo and behold, I found the Divine

Feminine, and I found as detailed in my

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book, The Chalice and the Blade which

as you said is really a textbook in,

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and it is a textbook, by the way, in

many places, but it's very accessible,

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it tells a story, it tells our story,

and it shows that there was a time

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when, yes, when the divine was Feminine.

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That does not mean, however, that the

opposite of patriarchy is matriarchy.

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It's really the other side of the coin.

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The opposite of patriarchy is what I

call partnership, rather than domination.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah,

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and it's funny, I My own, you know,

journey to the, to the Divine Feminine was

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very, it was very much an embodied kind of

intuitive thing that, that landed for me.

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And I, I was raised a conservative

Christian in a Southern Baptist household.

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So just no exposure to anything

feminine in the face of God whatsoever.

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And But it was an intuitive felt sense

after many kind of experiences that

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I, you know, felt kind of mystical and

unexplained where I'm like, there must

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be a divine feminine and now I just

want to, you know, hug that version

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of me and just, you know, because she,

there's so much evidence, you know, as,

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as amassed by you and Maria Gambutis

and just so many people who've been

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doing this work for decades, but yeah.

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You know, even this was even 10, 11

years ago, it wasn't in the forefront

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of my consciousness and nothing, even my

advanced degrees, you know, I had to had

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put it into, into my consciousness yet.

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So I want to go back to that and talk

about that a little bit about how, how do

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we continue to get this in front of women.

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But And everyone, but I'd love to hear

you tell me about, did you, was it, did

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you find the divine feminine through your

research or was there some moment before

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that where it kind of seeped into your

consciousness in the way that I described

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for me and what was that like for you?

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Riane Eisler: You know, it's really very

interesting because as you know, I started

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this work by using a new methodology.

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Which is an inclusive methodology, the

study of relational dynamics, and it

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really, relational is the key word.

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What kinds of relations does a

particular social system support?

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Which is a question that we should

be asking and we need to be asking.

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You know, is it this top down,

oppressive relationship, which in

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its most rigid forms is it a life and

death issue, really or is it mutuality,

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mutual respect, mutual accountability?

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Transparency is a word that has

crept into our language, hasn't it?

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Which has absolutely no no place

in the domination system, right?

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Of course it's not

going to be transparent.

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So, but my journey you know, I sometimes

talk about my life being like the pieces

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of a jigsaw puzzle, because in a school

in Cuba, and my parents, my mother in

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law, you know, sold her jewelry, which

she could smuggle out, to send me to a

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good school, a bilingual Methodist school.

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And it was a very interesting time because

my parents, you know, I got very tired of

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being, you know, the Methodists, as you

probably know, are very proselytizing.

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And so every day we had to go

to chapel, and every day Mr.

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Munoz, who was the head of the school,

would ask, Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

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And I got very, very tired of

being the only kid who didn't

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raise their hand, you know.

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And so I raised my hand.

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You know, I mean, I was very young.

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And my parents found out, and they

hired a rabbi to teach me that

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I'm Jewish, as if I didn't know,

because we had to escape, you know.

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But but the questions that I would ask,

We're not the usual questions, like in

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the Bible, it says that henceforth woman

is to be subservient to man, right?

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And I wanted to know, well, what

was it like before the henceforth?

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And nobody wanted to talk about that.

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And I also wanted to know why did Eve,

you know, woman ask advice from a snake?

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I mean, we don't usually do that.

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I don't know.

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And nobody wanted to talk about that.

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And fast forward well, also in that

school, by the way, there was a

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teacher who taught about prehistory.

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I had no idea that there was such a time.

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And I was fascinated.

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By the concept.

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I mean, this is why I talk about my

life like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle,

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because later, I mean, years later,

when I undertook my research on our

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past, present, and the possibilities

for our future to answer the questions

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of my childhood, or try to answer them.

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When I went back to prehistory, I

found out, for example, that there

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was a time before the hence, you

know, before the henceforth, when

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woman was not, as we are told in one

of the stories, because there are two

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creation stories in the Bible, you know.

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And, but the best known one is the one of

Eve and Adam in the fall, quote unquote,

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from paradise due to the sin of, and

that's bizarre, of even thinking of,

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of asking for wisdom, for knowledge on

our own, which of course is fundamental

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to domination regimes, isn't it?

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Anyway, I found out that the snake,

for example, was not only a symbol of

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the regeneration of life and associated

with the veneration of a female

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deity, a goddess but that snakes were

also symbols of oracular prophecy.

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But think about the Oracle of Delphi,

already in historic times in Greece.

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A female priestess, a pisoness she

was called, worked with snakes,

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and if you look at the Minoan

statues of the so called goddess or

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priestess, I think, figures, they

have snakes coiled around their arms,

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and they're in an oracular trance.

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So when I say that my journey was like the

pieces of a jigsaw puzzle coming together.

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The coming together happened with

my calling to really do this work.

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I mean, I, I just had to.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yes,

so many good things.

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I, I'm looking, I wish I can, I can't

turn the camera over there for, for

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viewers, but I have a replica of that

Minoan snake goddess and got to see her

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when I was in Crete several years ago.

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And one of the reasons I have this on

my arm and, you know, that's the, For

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listeners, it's a, it's a tattoo that I

got recently of a snake on my my wrist.

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Riane Eisler: Well, the snake

has a lot of meaning for you.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Very much so.

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Very much so.

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And has carried that for some time for me.

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Yeah.

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Riane Eisler: I did an interview

recently with the Scientific American.

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And the woman who

interviewed me is Indian.

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And she She wanted to know whether

snakebites put you in an oracular

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trance, and because she saw that a lot

of the Indian gurus used, you know,

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snakes and went into this trance.

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Liz Childs Kelly: So

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Riane Eisler: it's a well known

ancient lore that if you survive that

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bite you are in a regular trance and

you access some kind of knowledge.

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That often, it's, it's, it's you know,

my, my late husband who I miss terribly

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because we had 45 years of being together

David Loy he was a student of, of, of

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forecasting, and he was also interested

in what is still called the paranormal.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

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Riane Eisler: Very interested.

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In fact, when he was the project

head of the study of the effects of

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television on adults at the UCLA School

of Medicine, which is when we first met.

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He was very interested in that because

Selma Moss, who was in that school and

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many of you know who she was because she

studied the paranormal she was fired.

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And there was this forlorn little

group studying mental telepathy

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that met in the basement.

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Of the UCLA schools of medicine and

they asked David if he would be their

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faculty sponsor and he said sure and

so I became it's very unreliable.

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Sometimes we access it

and sometimes we don't.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yes,

and it's interesting.

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I won't go into the whole story, but

I live in Charlottesville, Virginia,

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that area now, and have been here

for about three years, but there's

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a Department of Perceptual Studies

that's part of the University of

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Virginia's School of Medicine, and

they're also studying similar things,

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near death experiences, out of body

experiences, the paranormal and whatnot.

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And I am always so fascinated by that

intersection of the science and the

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kind of, you know, I don't know what to

call it, but we tend to put that more

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in, like, the mystical realm, I guess.

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I love when those things kind of come

together and we think in that way

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to explore those things together.

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Riane Eisler: Well, I think that this

is off subject, perhaps, but, you

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know, we malign the Enlightenment.

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But the enlightenment was a time when

one social movement after another after

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that challenged traditions of domination.

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You know, the challenge to

the so-called Divine right of

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King Su, their whole subjects.

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And then the feminist movement challenging

the so-called divinely ordained

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right of men to the lower women and

children, and then the abolitionist

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and civil rights, et cetera, movements.

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Challenging the so called divinely

ordained right of a, quote, superior

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race to rule over inferior ones all

the way to today, to the environmental

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movement, challenging man's once

hallowed conquest and domination of

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nature erodes challenging the same

thing, a tradition of domination.

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Yeah.

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And that became very evident

to me in doing my research.

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Prehistory, that using the conventional

categories and, and yes, being

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highly educated, which means not

going, you know, to, to universities,

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fragments our consciousness, because

it's all very siloed, isn't it?

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

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Riane Eisler: And very, it, it, it makes

it almost impossible to connect the dots.

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And my work is connecting the dots.

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And surely.

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That's what neuroscience

shows today, for example.

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That early, the early years in

our intimate relations, our family

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and other intimate relations are

fundamental to our worldview.

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Liz Childs Kelly: And

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Riane Eisler: the conversation

today about trauma is very

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much of a partnership trend.

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Because we're realizing that

domination systems, as I have written

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in my books, are trauma factors.

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So it is.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah.

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Riane Eisler: Well,

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Liz Childs Kelly: and that

kind of is a nice tee up to a

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question that I wanted to ask you.

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So I think if I'm calculating right,

at least from my edition of the

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Chalice and the Blade, it's been 37

years, I think, since that came out.

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Yeah.

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And 86.

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Yes.

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I think my copy was 87.

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But I would love to know what you

think, you know, from, from that

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point of publishing that work to now.

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How do you think our

understanding of this.

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existing paradigm of

dominator culture has shifted.

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And you just named, you know, our, our

conversation around trauma is obviously

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one of those, but maybe what are

some of the ways in which you've seen

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things shift in, in that timeframe?

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Riane Eisler: Well the talk about gender

is very much of the partnership trend.

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I don't like the term toxic masculinity.

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Because that's what men are taught,

but it is domination masculinity.

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In that, well maybe if I were to tell

you the difference between what I call

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partnership and domination systems.

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Yeah.

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That would be a good place to start.

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Because I realized very early on in my

research to try to answer the questions,

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you know, does it have to be this way?

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Yeah.

327

:

I couldn't answer them using the

conventional social categories that we

328

:

have, like right left, religious secular,

eastern western, northern southern.

329

:

For one thing there have been

repressive, violent regimes in

330

:

every one of these categories.

331

:

So, none of them tells

us what we have to build.

332

:

You know, we can critique them, too.

333

:

You know, forever.

334

:

But if we have no idea of what kind of

configuration we have to put together we,

335

:

we, we can't lay the foundations for that.

336

:

So I started to draw from a much larger

database because the other thing about

337

:

our conventional categories, if you really

think about it, which we're taught not

338

:

to do They all either marginalize or

ignore nothing less than the majority

339

:

of humanity, women and children.

340

:

And that is fatal.

341

:

I mean, you can't talk about

systems studies if you do that.

342

:

And so I drew from a much

larger database, obviously.

343

:

And I also drew from prehistory.

344

:

So it's the whole of our history, the

whole of humanity, and also, of course, if

345

:

you, if you leave out women and children,

you leave out family, because they were

346

:

confined, you know, they had no access

to the, quote, men's world, it used to

347

:

be called, remember, the public sphere.

348

:

And so a lot of the feminists struggle.

349

:

Has been to gain access to that, to the

professions through higher education.

350

:

But at the same time we have been

indoctrinated, really, through

351

:

our, quote, higher education.

352

:

It isn't the people who are into

the God fearing, you know, the kind

353

:

of background that you came from.

354

:

But it's also progressives I remember.

355

:

Because I was a pioneer in getting, I

wrote the first article for the really

356

:

the Human Rights Quarterly, which was

the, you know, the publication of the

357

:

Human Rights Movement, on what later,

the same year, 86 on what later became

358

:

known as Women's Rights are Human Rights.

359

:

And we've always said, we've made this

distinction, it's okay to interfere.

360

:

in what states do, but it's not okay

to interfere in what families do.

361

:

And actually what happens

in families is fundamental.

362

:

And the good news are people like

you who free themselves of that

363

:

and take a different direction.

364

:

Because we humans and I'm, I've been very

non linear, but there's so much to cover.

365

:

Really neuroscience shows that

that kind of background tends,

366

:

tends is the word, to make people

accept domination and violence.

367

:

Punitive families,

368

:

Liz Childs Kelly: which

makes total sense to me.

369

:

Yeah.

370

:

And I, I want to, I want to,

I want to come back to that.

371

:

I want to talk about that more, but one

of the things that I was also thinking

372

:

about as I was preparing for this

conversation was you know, when I began

373

:

this, this, this particular journey,

you know, that I have been on with

374

:

learning more about the divine feminine.

375

:

And then of course, that is seeped

into every aspect of my life.

376

:

One thing that felt really frustrating

for me in being able to articulate it to

377

:

other people was this awareness that I

mean, you just named it so eloquently,

378

:

but that we don't participate in systems

that were created with the, with the

379

:

input of women or children at all.

380

:

Like we just were, were erased from them.

381

:

And so yet.

382

:

gaining success and higher education and

financial resources within those systems,

383

:

which is something that I was able to do.

384

:

It, and yet I still felt like I

didn't belong in those places,

385

:

which of course makes total sense

because they weren't designed for me.

386

:

But trying to articulate that to

people in a way that they could see

387

:

was so frustrating because It's the

absolute undercurrent of everything.

388

:

And.

389

:

If you can't see it, you can't see it.

390

:

And so, and I, I wonder, I just, I'd

love to hear your thoughts on that.

391

:

And I, there was part of me that wants

to say, well, things are changing so

392

:

rapidly and they are, and it's amazing.

393

:

And I would say even in my own life over

the last 10 years, I am surrounded by

394

:

people who do see it and understand it.

395

:

And I talk to them every day, and I

feel like the numbers are growing.

396

:

And yet I also talk to women who are

still very much And in that, in that

397

:

same framework and model of I am

achieving, I'm doing all the things,

398

:

and I cannot find my sense of self in

this place, and I turn it on myself.

399

:

And so I just wonder, you know,

it's obvious to me in war torn

400

:

cultures who's suffering the

most, you know, like we see it.

401

:

It's the women and children.

402

:

There is no question, but

there's a different kind of.

403

:

Thing that's happening

here in the United States.

404

:

And I think in other wealthier nations

where it's it's it's it's much harder

405

:

to actually see a name in some ways.

406

:

So I just I'm curious what that

you know how you understand that

407

:

and how you respond to that.

408

:

Riane Eisler: Well, what you are

talking about is my journey, my

409

:

journey of discovery, which is

what my books are really about.

410

:

Because, like in my second book, which

I wrote ten, which was published ten

411

:

years after Chavez, A Sacred Pleasure.

412

:

I go into, and it foreshadows

a lot of what I have written.

413

:

I mean the subtitle is Sex, Myth,

and the Politics of the Body.

414

:

And of course, you know, that's

one of the trends, isn't it?

415

:

I mean, trauma, as we know,

is embedded in our bodies.

416

:

It's not so simple to say, well, I no

longer believe, because It's it's there.

417

:

You bring up my whole journey because

after that book I wrote on, I really

418

:

wanted to see how can we change this,

you know, chalice does end with that with

419

:

two scenarios, you know, breakthrough

of evolution or breakdown of evolution.

420

:

And it's still as

relevant, if not more so.

421

:

Frankly, even though there have been more

discoveries, like discovery that women

422

:

hunted, for example, or that the hands in

the, in the IC caves were women's hands.

423

:

I mean that, but you know, the guy

who, who published on that, he didn't

424

:

publish that until he went emeritus.

425

:

The Academy just doesn't accept this

yet, I mean, and it's not well known,

426

:

isn't it, that the fingers of the

hands of women and men are different?

427

:

He happened to know that.

428

:

And lo and behold, you know, we

were always told, right, that

429

:

these are handprints of the

artist, which were he, right?

430

:

And it turns out that they're

women's most of the time.

431

:

So, I mean, we're finding out so much,

but my work brings it all together.

432

:

And to continue on my journey I

became more and more interested in

433

:

changing and cultural transformation.

434

:

What do we need to do?

435

:

Because we've inherited a lot of this

I mean, you know, and I'm very worried,

436

:

for example, about AI at this point,

because it's garbage in and garbage

437

:

out, you know, it will be programmed

with all of this, quote, knowledge,

438

:

which is A lot of it just isn't true,

and we have to participate in making

439

:

new stories that more accurately

reflect our past, our present, and

440

:

the possibilities for our future.

441

:

Because the thing about it is not enough

to protest and to critique and to disrupt.

442

:

You have to have a sense

of where you want to go.

443

:

I promised you I would describe the

partnership and domination systems, as

444

:

far as I have, my findings are that the

cultural transformation is not from left

445

:

to right, or from religious or secular,

or eastern and western, because, you

446

:

know, I mean, look at Nazi Germany,

it was a secular isn't a question of

447

:

religious or secular, look at the Taliban.

448

:

You know they're religious and

yet look at the Unitarians.

449

:

I mean, you know those categories,

you can have the partnership and

450

:

domination orientation because it's

always a matter of degree in both.

451

:

Religious or secular, eastern or western,

northern or southern, so on and so on.

452

:

But the configuration is

what, we don't want to go back

453

:

to any good old days, okay?

454

:

But what the study of prehistory

shows is a certain configuration.

455

:

Take a place like Çatalhöyük,

for example, which I think you

456

:

are very well familiar with.

457

:

It's one of the largest early

farming sites ever excavated.

458

:

Liz Childs Kelly: And modern

day Turkey, for listeners, yeah,

459

:

who may not know, it's modern

460

:

Riane Eisler: day Turkey.

461

:

Turkey in Anatolia.

462

:

And as Ian Hodder, who is one

of the excavators said in his

463

:

interview, there's a movie being

made about my life and my work.

464

:

And he was interviewed for it.

465

:

And he said it was definitely a dynamic

society guided for a woman actors for

466

:

a man and the between them for linking

rather than ranking that it's not

467

:

only that you have in a partnership

system, the opposite of what you

468

:

have in a nomination system Which,

in a domination system, you have top

469

:

down control authoritarian family.

470

:

Family is part of my research.

471

:

Economics is part of my research.

472

:

And, of course, society and

all the social institutions.

473

:

But as you move to the partnership

system, which we see in so many

474

:

people, like, Many of the ones that

you are in touch with, they've rejected

475

:

that model of family, haven't they?

476

:

That, which takes me to the second part

of the configuration, which is gender.

477

:

I don't know if you've noticed, and

let's look at the MAGA movement,

478

:

or the Taliban, or Nazi Germany.

479

:

It, it doesn't really matter.

480

:

They always have the subordination of the

female form to the male form of humanity.

481

:

And those are the two

basic forms that we have.

482

:

So what, you know, the, the,

the caveman cartoon, right?

483

:

In one hand, he's got a club, a weapon.

484

:

In the other one, he's yanking

a woman, he's hauling a woman

485

:

by the hair, he's pulling her.

486

:

So male dominance, violence, war, let's

just quote human nature, which is a lie.

487

:

Because getting back to Tzotal

Huya, we had a thousand years

488

:

of no destruction from warfare.

489

:

Can you believe that?

490

:

It's, it's proof that war is

not inherent in human nature.

491

:

But how many people know

about Tsar Tomgul Yak?

492

:

And how many people know, even

in some of the newer books, which

493

:

bits and pieces, you know, are,

are coming out with this evidence?

494

:

They don't talk about the fact that it

was not a male dominated society, as

495

:

Hodder, Ian Hodder, the archaeologist,

wrote in an article in the Scientific

496

:

American being born male or female

was not effective in determining

497

:

one's opportunities and one's status.

498

:

You know, we have to learn about our past.

499

:

We have to learn the truth about our

past, and about the possibilities about

500

:

what's really happening today, and also

about the possibilities for our future,

501

:

because that's the struggle for our

world today, is between partnership

502

:

and domination, and violence and abuse

is built into domination systems.

503

:

Whether it's child and wife

violence, you know, beating,

504

:

whatever, you know, killing,

quote, domestic violence and that.

505

:

You see, we've learned as women and

men, because this is not a question of

506

:

women against men or men against women.

507

:

It's a question of social structure.

508

:

And men don't have it so good.

509

:

They have to give nothing

less than their lives.

510

:

Because some guy on top, like a

Putin, wants more territory, right?

511

:

Wants more real estate.

512

:

I mean, but they do get to control

their families in that system.

513

:

They get to call the shots, if you will.

514

:

So, you really have to consider the whole

picture, and you have to consider story.

515

:

and language.

516

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

517

:

And I was thinking about too, I know

that you have been working on this

518

:

Peace Begins at Home campaign, which I

would love to hear you talk about, but

519

:

even that language, domestic violence

versus family violence, which I know

520

:

is the term that you would prefer.

521

:

It really, it does.

522

:

There's so many ways I think, and

we, in which we kind of minimize the.

523

:

The, the violence and the

impact and normalize it.

524

:

We could look at that in a lot of

different ways like a, a A woman

525

:

was raped as opposed to a man raped

her, you know, like we switch it

526

:

around, like, so it's, it's something

that happened to her as opposed to

527

:

an action that was actually done.

528

:

Or I, I just, I was talking to someone

who's very conscious yesterday and we

529

:

were literally talking about this, the

language that we use and metaphors of

530

:

violence, and then two minutes later, she

says, without even realizing it, I'm going

531

:

to butcher the pronunciation of this.

532

:

Butcher!

533

:

Like, oh my god, it's everywhere!

534

:

But I, I wonder if you could speak to

that, you know, that shift, that domestic

535

:

violence, family violence, because

when I think about, when I was reading

536

:

about your, your thoughts around this,

what I was thinking about is that all

537

:

pervasiveness of dominator culture.

538

:

And like, where do you even start

to, you, you pull, you've got to

539

:

pull at so many different threads to

get at it because it's so insidious.

540

:

Right.

541

:

But that feels like a very big one.

542

:

What's happening in the home?

543

:

Riane Eisler: Well We

have to focus on that.

544

:

And in my book on economics, because

that's what I now really very much focus

545

:

on, the real wealth, the real wealth.

546

:

You know, it's a play on Adam

Smith's The Wealth of Nations.

547

:

You know, care has been devalued

as it's coded feminine, right?

548

:

Yes.

549

:

And so what I propose is

really in that book is the

550

:

caring economics of partnerism.

551

:

I mean, we, we, you know this from

having been in the corporate world.

552

:

We don't want a piece of the existing pie.

553

:

We want to bake a better economic pie.

554

:

That's what it's about.

555

:

Certainly.

556

:

We have to go back to the

basic question of what do we

557

:

value, and what do we measure?

558

:

Because we measure what we value,

and we value what we measure.

559

:

So all of this is interconnected,

and so is language, of course.

560

:

And yes, there's a lot to do, but you

know, we have to remember something, which

561

:

is that our cultures are human creations.

562

:

We can recreate them, but we have

to know what we want to create.

563

:

And if we keep talking about

dismantling the top of the domination

564

:

pyramid, you know, economics and

politics is conventionally defined,

565

:

and leave the base intact, it

keeps revealing itself, doesn't it?

566

:

So, it's not coincidental.

567

:

That talking about the Divine

Feminine is horrific for anybody,

568

:

well, you know very well.

569

:

And I want to ask you how, are you

the only one in your family who

570

:

left or is there somebody else?

571

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Well, what

I'll say about my family is it

572

:

was not a super rigid, you know,

fundamentalist kind of family.

573

:

I think the, the, the faith was

very forefront, but more on, I would

574

:

say in an intellectual way, not in

a you know, I demand allegiance at

575

:

all costs, but I would, what I would

say is that my own journey, yes, I

576

:

was the only one really that left.

577

:

And that was very

challenging for my family.

578

:

And particularly the relationship that

I have with my mother and I, you know,

579

:

getting a book deal definitely helped.

580

:

It normalized what I was doing a

bit in a way that I think made it

581

:

more comfortable and palatable.

582

:

And I, I will say she's come a long way,

but yes, I am pretty much still the only

583

:

one who's on this different path for sure.

584

:

Riane Eisler: But you are on this path.

585

:

And there are so many people on this path.

586

:

But we have to have a frame.

587

:

My work you know, and this has been

a very non linear interview the

588

:

divine feminine is an inconceivable

concept to people who are brought

589

:

up in a rigid domination system.

590

:

And frankly it is a system that

has very rigid gender stereotypes.

591

:

And it has the ranking of what is

considered masculine, you know,

592

:

violence competition, eat, but dog

eat dog competition, not competition.

593

:

Because I think there is competition

in partnership systems too.

594

:

But it's a question of, I

see that you're orating.

595

:

You know, I used to do a

lot of keynote speeches.

596

:

Thanks.

597

:

And I, I see somebody who's

really a very good orator.

598

:

Well, I, it's something

I want to aspire to.

599

:

And that's competition in a way.

600

:

But it's not this, and of

course dogs don't eat dogs.

601

:

I mean, you know, but we've

been taught to accept that.

602

:

It, it is a lot of

unlearning and relearning.

603

:

But we have to Know the foundations

that we have to build because, and we

604

:

see what are the foundations on which

domination systems we build themselves.

605

:

And it starts with family and

childhood, because that's what

606

:

neuroscience shows that nothing less

than the structure of our brains.

607

:

And with it, how we feel,

how we think, how we act.

608

:

Including how we vote is really

very much a question of what kind of

609

:

family, and most people don't have

the courage, frankly or the capacity,

610

:

really, they're so traumatized.

611

:

You weren't.

612

:

You, a very interesting clue is

what you said, that it wasn't

613

:

that you have to obey or else.

614

:

That's kind of, I was rearing.

615

:

is fundamental to conditioning people

to fit into domination systems.

616

:

You either follow the strong

man leader, right, or else.

617

:

So then is gender.

618

:

And we are so used to look at

what happens to domestic violence.

619

:

And even though there's a movement

to call it coercive control

620

:

now, you know, California.

621

:

Ireland, Great Britain have,

have coercive control searches.

622

:

It's, I think we need to call

it what it is, violence in

623

:

the family, family violence.

624

:

And yes, we are planning a campaign.

625

:

And those who are interested in it, please

get in touch because it is so fundamental.

626

:

So we have to show we,

we are trying to get.

627

:

Especially spiritual and religious

leaders to speak out for nonviolent

628

:

families, because so many people

think that spanking is not violence.

629

:

I mean, this is insane.

630

:

Of course it's violence.

631

:

It's hitting.

632

:

And what do children learn from that?

633

:

They learn that it's okay for those

who are bigger and stronger to use

634

:

violence to impose their will on

those who are weaker and smaller.

635

:

I mean, it's so simple, isn't it?

636

:

Then there is economics.

637

:

If we don't really change our

economic system, we're trying to.

638

:

People like you, but dropping out.

639

:

Is creating an alternative

is what we have to do.

640

:

And we have to start with creating we

tried to with social wealth economic

641

:

indicators which you can find on our

website at center for partnership.

642

:

org, which really show.

643

:

Whether the real wills of our nation,

especially in our post industrial

644

:

age, when economists say that our

most important capital, which I

645

:

really hate, is human capital,

you know, capacity development.

646

:

I mean, when we, we know from

neuroscience that whether or not we have

647

:

these flexible, creative people, etc.

648

:

largely depends on the type

of, Education and of care they

649

:

receive very early on, isn't it?

650

:

So, and of course, story and language.

651

:

Your example of the woman who said,

I'm going to butcher this is so good

652

:

because what she really meant was

something that doesn't require the term.

653

:

I'm going to misspeak.

654

:

You know, that's, that's

perfectly acceptable.

655

:

We are so used to using, well, I, and

we can change it like that old adage

656

:

of killing two birds with one stone.

657

:

Well, how about hashing

two birds with one egg?

658

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes, my therapist

likes to say feeding two birds

659

:

with one scone, which I also like.

660

:

Riane Eisler: I love that.

661

:

So we have to count on human

creativity, but we really need to

662

:

build the partnership configuration.

663

:

And that means taking into account

that disenfranchising women is

664

:

very much related to not having

the work a deity that is feminine.

665

:

Yes.

666

:

And it's just very simple that

the return of the feminine

667

:

divine is part of the movement.

668

:

But for people who are heavily

traumatized, That's humancy, isn't it?

669

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

670

:

Well, and one of the things that I

noticed coming up, I'm noticing in our

671

:

conversation, and I think it's sort of

a residual memory of when I was first

672

:

reading your book, is a feeling of anger

and that that there's so many ways in

673

:

which this information is not easily

accessible to us or When I really started

674

:

and you will know this I think very well

but when I started kind of going down my

675

:

own searching path and reading I would

find information from From people like

676

:

Maria Gambutis, or I cannot remember the

name of the man who did the, the research

677

:

in or the excavations in Minoan Crete, but

you will find these sort of picking apart.

678

:

Yeah, there's this picking apart of

people's work and questioning it and

679

:

holding it to a standard of, almost

an impossible standard, like I, I so

680

:

deeply respect you doing this work and

writing this at a time when you did

681

:

I can only imagine the, the potential

opposition that you were running

682

:

into, or I think about people like Max

DeShue who ended up leaving Harvard

683

:

because she knew she could never do

the research she wanted to do there.

684

:

It wasn't going to be taken seriously.

685

:

And so I, all of that was kind of

coming to a head for me when I first

686

:

read the chalice and the blade.

687

:

And I feel like kind of rising

up now because it really is.

688

:

It feels like in a way that these Systems

are kind of designed to self perpetuate

689

:

and so then therefore squash down anything

that's really going to challenge it.

690

:

And I, I wonder for you, somebody

who's been doing this work, which is

691

:

so sacred and important for decades

now, where have you found kind of

692

:

the resilience to keep going with it?

693

:

As I would imagine you've run

into some blocks along the way.

694

:

Riane Eisler: Well, you know, look,

perseverance is what it takes.

695

:

Yeah.

696

:

But that perseverance is

an existential commitment.

697

:

I, I think that we, I don't know

what the outcome will be of this

698

:

struggle between domination and

partnership, and I think in the short

699

:

run we're in for some difficult times.

700

:

But in the long run, if we have a

different frame, if we understand.

701

:

And if we are not distracted, I mean,

this, this whole conversation about

702

:

capitalism versus socialism is a complete

distraction, because both Smith and

703

:

Marx perpetuated the hidden system of

gendered values, the devaluation of

704

:

caring for people starting at birth

and caring for our Mother Earth.

705

:

It is, there is nothing in either of

their writings about caring for nature.

706

:

Nature was there to be exploited.

707

:

And as for caring for people, it

was to be done for free by a woman

708

:

in a male controlled household.

709

:

These systems came out of the 1700s,

the:

710

:

system was just beginning to be

challenged in an organized way.

711

:

There have always been people

who have challenged it.

712

:

But most of them have met

with an untimely death.

713

:

And it's only as that changed.

714

:

And the system, and it changed

during times of great disequilibrium.

715

:

I mean, I really recommend that

people read that's another thing

716

:

that really has me worried is the

shortening of the attention span.

717

:

And that's why we're making a

movie because people are more

718

:

inclined to watch than to read.

719

:

But I really think that, well,

most of my books are on audio,

720

:

so you can listen to them.

721

:

And I really think that that's very, very

important, and that we connect the dots.

722

:

Because it's not, the people pushing us

back really have a very coherent frame.

723

:

It's a domination frame, starting

with God fearing, fearing, you know,

724

:

the, remember the promise keepers?

725

:

But maybe you're too young.

726

:

But, you know, men were told

that they either control their

727

:

families or they leave them.

728

:

Those are their only choices.

729

:

I mean, that's, that's really, and

the very rigid gender stereotypes.

730

:

How else can you rank?

731

:

masculine over feminine.

732

:

Unless you have very

rigid gender stereotypes.

733

:

So a lot of things that seem absolutely

disconnected happening today are

734

:

movement towards partnership, but

it's happening in bits and pieces.

735

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Well, and I guess maybe

that, that kind of leads me to what feels

736

:

like a, a final question for you, which

is, I, I, I know, is, is hope a part

737

:

of your framework at this point, and do

you have, you know, hope for our future?

738

:

Like, how do you hold that based on

where we are in this moment in the,

739

:

you know, the career and the work

that you've done over all this time?

740

:

Riane Eisler: Well, I know

what I said earlier is that

741

:

culture is a human creation.

742

:

Yeah.

743

:

We can uncreate and recreate it, but we

have to know what we're trying to build,

744

:

and as long as we don't take into account

family, childhood, gender, changing our,

745

:

the values behind our economic system,

and yes, changing our stories and our

746

:

language, those are the four cornerstones.

747

:

On which the old system, the

domination system, and really this

748

:

old system is only about 5 years old.

749

:

Because war was non existent before then

and so was really this rather nonsensical

750

:

idea that the divine is only in male form.

751

:

We have this, I mean, in Christianity,

we have this ridiculous holy family,

752

:

which only the father and the

son are divine, the only mortal.

753

:

is the mother of God.

754

:

I mean, this makes no

sense whatsoever, does it?

755

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Not at all.

756

:

Yes.

757

:

I mean, what's more divine

than the mother of God?

758

:

That makes no sense.

759

:

Right.

760

:

Riane Eisler: And of course we know from

the Gnostic Gospels what an important

761

:

part Mary Magdalene played in the

early Christian movement, and that,

762

:

yes, she was a partner to Jesus, and

of course Jesus was a Jew, preaching

763

:

not preaching, you know, do unto others

what you would have them do unto you.

764

:

Isaiah said, you know, that,

that, that, it dates back to

765

:

Isaiah in the Old Testament.

766

:

I mean, he was trying to teach

partnerships, so called feminine

767

:

values of care, rather than coercion.

768

:

And we have to be very conscious

of how in domination systems,

769

:

caring and coercion, there's a

confluence between them, isn't there?

770

:

In starting in families.

771

:

In economics, you know, those on

top will take care of us, right?

772

:

No, they won't.

773

:

Not as long as they are

indoctrinated that there has to be

774

:

somebody who wins and who loses.

775

:

Somebody on top and somebody on bottom.

776

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

777

:

Riane Eisler: So it's all connected.

778

:

And you say about hope, and I say I,

People ask me that question, you know,

779

:

do I have hope, and I, of course,

have hope, because I believe That we

780

:

humans can recreate our culture once

we understand our past, our present,

781

:

and the possibilities for the future.

782

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Well, I want to

thank you for your contribution and

783

:

your work over all of these years.

784

:

And you know, I wouldn't be doing

what I do if it weren't for you.

785

:

And it certainly gives me hope and

a sense of great purpose and it's

786

:

very much a calling for me too.

787

:

So I'm just so deeply grateful for

You know, not only your time with

788

:

me today, but also all that you are

contributing and have contributed in

789

:

helping us see these systems and imagine

something new and something different

790

:

that's going to be more supportive.

791

:

So much gratitude.

792

:

Riane Eisler: I thank you for

the work that you're doing.

793

:

And I invite you and our

listeners, our viewers to join us.

794

:

in this campaign for nonviolent families.

795

:

First of all, of course, we'll have

much more happiness, economically we'll

796

:

save tons and tons of money, and yes,

there is a link between, and I show this

797

:

link in my work, between what happens

in families, And what happens in war

798

:

and terrorism crime you know, it is,

the arm bone is connected to the wrist

799

:

bone and we have to connect the dots.

800

:

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

801

:

Yes.

802

:

And I will make sure that

there's information about

803

:

all of your work in the book.

804

:

In the show notes, I know that

there's this, the partnerism site,

805

:

which sort of breaks out how we can

move more to partnerships systems.

806

:

There's Rhianna's just amassed

an incredible amount of resources

807

:

in addition to her books and all

of her writings, there's so much.

808

:

So I will make sure that I put

all of that in the show notes as

809

:

well as any information about the

Peace Begins at Home campaign.

810

:

And Yeah, I just want to thank all

of you for listening as always.

811

:

It's such a joy to be able to

share these conversations with you.

812

:

And even if I can't see you out

there, I know that it just feels good.

813

:

It feels good to know that

we're in this together.

814

:

We're not alone.

815

:

We are, we are seeking different

ways of moving in the world together.

816

:

So I'm deeply grateful for you too.

817

:

And until next time, I hope you

take such good care of yourselves

818

:

and I'll be with you again soon.

819

:

Home to Her is hosted by me, Liz Kelley.

820

:

You can visit me online at hometoher.

821

:

com, where you can find show

notes and other episodes.

822

:

You can read articles about the

Sacred Feminine, and you'll also

823

:

find a link to join the Home to

Her Facebook group for lots more

824

:

discussion and exploration of Her.

825

:

You can also follow me on Instagram,

at home to her, to keep up to

826

:

date with the latest episodes.

827

:

Thanks so much for joining us

and we'll see you back here soon.

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About the Podcast

Home to Her
The Home to Her podcast is dedicated to elevating the wisdom of the Sacred Feminine. Join host Liz Kelly for intimate conversations with acclaimed authors, artists, teachers, poets and mystics, each of whom will help us learn more about Sacred Feminine history, Her spiritual ideas and how to connect with this wisdom right now.

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Liz Kelly